shadchan

Seems like I’m frequently sending in the “warning” story. While it’s not. G-d forbid my intention to be negative on interactions between BT’s and the frum community it seems I run across my share of people who have well lets just say misunderstood peoples intentions or perspectives to their personal detriment. This story is one of those from first hand knowledge and happened in the last year. Names have been changed loshon hara is not the objective… Leah was a young woman in her early twenties when she first encountered a Jewish outreach organization. She spent some months with them and her soul was ignited. She burned to learn more. The organization encouraged her to attend their women’s yeshiva in New York and she worked hard to arrange to be able to do so. With great joy she learned for about a year and half and took an apartment with some of the other young women students in Boro Park (NY City very-frum community). As she learned she looked around her neighborhood and idolized her neighbors. The women with 4 or 5 or 7 young children moving organized down the street in and out of the stores walking regally with their husbands and children on Shabbat this was her goal and a worthy goal it was. And her neighbors were warm helpful inviting. The children as children almost always are were engaging and a large table covered with a white tablecloth. Shabbos finery and the warm smells of Shabbos food oh she ached for such beauty in the norm in her life. One day after she’d been there a year a neighbor invited her in for a cup of tea. The neighbor asked. “what would you think of a shidduch offer (a marriage proposal)?” Well she was thrilled! She could be the one regally walking on Shabbat and preparing the fine Shabbos table it was all within reach! The neighbor continued. “there’s a young man in Williamsburg he’s a Michlov chossid (fictional chassidus name replacing the real one) who would make a nice match.” Now we pause a moment for some explanation. There are some frum groups that are heavily involved in outreach and their communities are full of BTs. There are some that are lightly involved and their communities have some BTs. And there are those who are not involved at all and are frankly pretty darn insular. Among those well I guess the word sects is appropriate that are involved in outreach some in those communities greatly appreciate the BT fervor and zest for Torah and Hashem but there are those who don’t… because it’s different because it shows a family problem because it creates lots of relationship complications. Those that don’t would have concerns about their children marrying a BT (straight up they would discourage it). Most living in Williamsburg a wonderful place full of Torah are in the insular category. Let’s just say when it comes to having their children marry a BT it wouldn’t normally be considered. And with that back to our story… So Leah consulted her Rosh Yeshiva. He expressed strong concerns and advised her against considering it. She spoke with her rav same answer. But this was her dream and she was chasing it…so she went on a date. He was a nice looking young man had an income and his family was extremely extremely welcoming. Another 2 dates and the match was agreed. But why? Why would a nice looking young man from an insular chassid group with a good family and parnosa be looking so far outside his community for a match? I mean. Leah is a nice young woman of average looks no special job skills and from an average family (no special wealth)? The Rebbe of the chassidus gave a bracha but also strangely went on about how he was there should she every have a problem she shouldn’t hesitate to come right over and discuss it. The wedding was nice the kallah was beautiful the music was good. The Get the divorce came 6 weeks later. See he had dropped out of the community (so he no longer was considered an acceptable match for anyone in it) and supposedly returned. But in reality. Leah was headed up he was headed down she was burning for Torah and Hashem he was burning with other less savory desires. To the shadchun the matchmaker it looked like they were in a similar place. But their ships were headed in opposite directions and when they arrived in the same house this became apparent very quickly. Zahava’s story starts similar. Her father passed away when she was young and her mother was part of a marginal community but moderately religious. Full religious education was not available in her area but in college she became interested and starting looking to learn more. She actually ended up in the same women’s yeshiva as Leah at the same time. For Zahava the whole family picture was the draw. Ah look at the couples lovingly walking together and making their life together. She didn’t grow up with that and she desired it. The story from here is similar. A neighbor a shadchan (matchmaker) a chossid of Memlachta from a Williamsburg family (though living in Flatbush a bit odd right there). This one takes some interesting twists though… The chasan’s family (groom’s family) wanted to make sure it was properly kosher for their son. So first prove you’re Jewish. Well the mother doesn’t have actual paperwork (do you?). So they push her to go through a geiurus safek (a conversion of doubt). Then what kind of properly chassidic name is Zahava? So they make her take on an additional name now she’s Fraida Zahava. They took her to the store and set her up with the right wardrobe (according to their Williamsburg chassidic standards) right down to the type of underwear. The wedding just occurred all proper. But again the question of why an insular chassidic family is taking a BT for their son stands out. A few tidbits have leaked out and indeed there’s a reason he was living in Flatbush and not in his chassidic community. Perhaps. G-d willing it will work out yet it would seem that again they are headed in opposite directions. —My dear friends there are many who greatly appreciate the zeal and drive BTs bring. Yet others don’t appreciate the background BTs bring. Whether this is fair or not is not the point. If those that are known for not appreciating that zeal are suddenly involving themselves with you (as a “BT”) just keep your eyes open and try to recognize why. This entry was posted on Monday. October 29th. 2007 at 2:00 amand is filed under. You can follow any responses to this entry through the feed. You can or from your own site. This is a very common problem! There’s a lack of appreciation for the fact that two people can be at the same place momentarily even though they are heading in the opposite directions. There’s also the shadchan who thinks an enthusiast BT is just what the person who’s heading in the wrong direction “needs” to “save” him or her — a task they would certainly never assign to his or her own offspring! But there are exceptions. I recently met a woman from a very traditional community who is married to a BT with a complicated background. Before I met the wife. I wondered,”What kind of woman will she be the person who married someone like that?” The answer was: an open-minded sincere person who cares about what really matters not what others think. “There’s also the shadchan who thinks an enthusiast BT is just what the person who’s heading in the wrong direction “needs” to “save” him or her…” Oy. If there was ever an award for the worst reason to get married it would definitely go to marrying someone in order to save them from themselves. I don’t understand what the goal is of this posting. Or what the point is. Is it that you can’t trust shadchanim from Boro Park? Or that marriage becomes such a big goal that there is a temptation to skip the process of objectively analyzing the match? Or that these women were chasing after images of something that they desired? I think it’s not a blame game as these shadchanim sound well-intentioned despite their lack of understanding of the issues. And this certainly has no relation to Boro Park as this type of story could have occurred in any of the myriad of flourishing Jewish communities of the type depicted by Akiva (although I disagree with his mention of the location being that it does tend to lead to the assumption you proposed- this should certainly have been deleted). The stories demonstrate. IMO the need for BT’s to develop a strong relationship with a “dating mentor” in order to help them navigate this complex process. It is also a call to FFB’s to open their eyes to possibilities such as depicted and help the BT’s they are close in regard to these matters. The end goal is not a happy wedding and spirited dancing it is a bayit ne’eman b’yisrael with a couple who are content and compatible. I remember way back when I was dating that sometimes I would be set up with some real winners but I was smart enough to realize on my own that something was fishy. Unfortunately many BT are so plotzing to get married that they do not listen to the advise they got from their rabbonim from seminary and they ended up in horrific marriages and messy divorces. Perhaps the rate of divorce among BT is high because they don’t have their parents looking out for them and stearing them away from marriages that are not healthy for them. All BT must use saichel and listen to the wise advice of friends and rabbonim. I think the point of the posting was just as was written: a warning to new perhaps naive BTs to be careful in the marriage parsha. Many many BTs idealize all frum people in their initial stages and unfortunately may not be wary and savvy enough to properly evaluate a proposal. It seems the shadchan in the above story took advantage of her naivitee and didn’t portray the boy accurately. It is also a warning to listen to the advice of rabbaim who have your best interests in mind despite one’s desparation to get married. I think this is a very valuable post for this website especially. There are many newcomers who read this site and the point needs to be made and I think Akiva made it beautifully without exaggeration or unnecessary loshen hara. Unfortunately stories such as the subject of this post are more proof for the proposition that BTs especially should think beyond the proverbial envelope and prize Midos far more than Yichus if I can paraphrase the view of R M Sternbuch in Teshuvos vHanhaghos. One has to wonder wny BTs were set up with such losers. The BT who enters the new world of Orthodox Judaism has the responsibility to continue using his/her powers of observation and judgment. A proposed course of action (not only in shidduchim)can look too good to be true because it is. Yes people should should take care not to mislead a BT even for altruistic reasons but also the BT should take care not to be gullible. I’m sorry to say but sometimes the Rabbonim are the ones giving out the less than great advice. Ultimately one needs to trust their instincts and I believe it is best to go through stages in a relationship rather than racing to the chuppah. BT’s do have parents who care. But so many write their parents out of the process not even introducing a prospective spouse to their parents. I recommed the book “In the Beginning” by Zimmerman and Einhorn. It talks about the dating process and the importance of developing an emotional bond. I would call the process advocated “Modified Shidduch Dating.” A great read. This is a very good post. It is not just a warning to BT’s to be careful but everyone should be careful. Unfortunately from between the lines I seem to read that the shadchanim involved are either very naive and not fit for the job or worse being deceptive and definately not suitable to be a shadchan. Shadchanim are OK but buyers beware. ‘ “There’s also the shadchan who thinks an enthusiast BT is just what the person who’s heading in the wrong direction “needs” to “save” him or her…” ‘ “Oy. If there was ever an award for the worst reason to get married it would definitely go to marrying someone in order to save them from themselves. ” And a shadchan who sets up someone into this situation is not doing anyone a favor. A shadchan who doesn’t know is unqualified for the job and should rethink career choices. I have heard far worse stories of shadchanim setting up people who have no business marrying anyone. (People who abuse their (now former) spouses should be blackballed.) One of the points is that BTs need to be very careful. Shadchanim are usually great people but as they are paid for a marriage they are not entirely objective. Some want a match - any match - to pay off! I wonder if Leah’s Rosh Yeshiva feels he did speak strongly but she did not get the message BT’s: learn the signs when people talk of how they transmit negative information about people. Akiva how would you reconcile the following 3 seemingly contradictory concepts i’ve chanced upon in your slantedly piercing piece on aidel spiritual bliss meets hareidi heartthrob gone bad. A) nominating the “unsavory desires” of an ex religious hareidi individual that “came back to his community” as the sole reason for spiritual and emotional heartbreak. B) definition c over @ merriam webster for appreciate : c: to judge with heightened perception or understanding : be fully aware of So your sense of “appreciating bt’s” seems to be about as insular as those insular communities your complaining about. I’ve had my share of wacko ex hareidi weirdos and stuff even in broad daylight !Some are clearly lacking in certain areas,that doesnt mean i’m goin to dedicate a whole heartwarming post to warning the world about the hazards of dating ex hareidi people who decide to come back. They are probally just as hazardous to ones haughty /spiritual health as any individual moving around in different spriitual circles until they find the right one. (no i didnt grow up in the hasidic part of williamsbug and return for some yenta warmth). Heres the thing individuals have a innate tendency to blame others for their poor choices/rigid reasonings/lack of common sense and deducing abilities/ limited understanding of relationships and communications and or tripping on the unstable motions of emotional and default moves towards hyperstructured religion. We are all responsible for the choices we choose to surround ourselves with. I’ve been fed that line since forever and could probally puke that line up in my sleep……. scenario in point :Say I went to India and fell in love with the way of life and gemstone availability. I then start following some religion guru and fantasizing/drooling over the concept of marrying an indian designer and designing jewelry for him. The guru who i’ve come to idolize (hypothetically) sets me up with one of the local hearthrob jewelry designers. After 3 coffee dates im married after six meals and two jewelry shows we are divorced ,our souls were just not jiving neither was the jewelry designing. Other than my lack of intellectual think through and spiritual analysis/ poor choices,emotional need for out of the ordinary connection theres not much else that I could be blaming my love affair with all that India has to offer on. Who moved herself to India in the first place ? Back to the Leah story who was moved by orthodox judaism who moved herself to boro park ?Leah should be careful about where she falls in love and why just like everyone else !!!!!!!Bt’s do not the have exclusive for getting screwed in hareidi society. Its not a trademarked concept. “unsavory desires” is not an ex hareidi specific trait but i agree thought the 24/7 religious costume party is an old problem that has been addressed redressed rebuffed over and over again but its still worn and often causes confusion. Its not clear in this story though that it was the dress that fooled her. What exactly did she not see in her 3 dates ?Why did she marry a stranger from an insular community after 3 dates. Sorry no tinok shenishba brownie points awarded to rebbitzin leah and her six babies in matching buggies and challah baking fantasies. Especially cuz she only dated her hareidi heartthrob three times what on earth ????????Did she even get a chance to share her six babies in matching buggies marching down boro park ave fantasy with him before he married her? The most ironic part of your whole post is your heartfelt conclusion. You seem to have forgotten that the hazardous hareidi ex husband in the story was technically a BT according to your post he had been not religious and then returned to his community (who didnt accept him for their own precious well insulated souls. So what was that bit about appreciating the background of bt’s ? how does that work some kind of exclusive appreciating thing where you only appreciate the backgrounds of bt’s that are similar to yours?So we can learn the following from this piercing piece of one sided marital discord and heartbreak 1) Do not judge your friend and her ex hareidi husband until you have stood in their space and dont provide readers with the not so unique opportunity to draw blanket conclusions with ambiguous facts that lack content and nuance and tasty tidbits that are not all encompassing in nature.2) when typing up chicken soup for the spiritually haughty soul stories its always smart to include both sides of the story like for instance in this case i would have included examples of “unsavory desires” you know they do differ in definition from community to community ……… did he like watching Grays Anatomy/pushing daisies/ desperate housewives or seinfeld reruns instead of 613 torah ave/uncle moishy and boruch learns his brochos ? Or was the unsavory desires something a little more kinky. You have a point about a broader appreciation for BT’s of all kinds and stripes. I didn’t think of that and it is wise that you brought it up. I think the post’s primary focus was on the potential “falling in” as related to gross mismatches resulting from a lack of understanding on the Shadchan’s part and/or a lack of research on the part of the BT. Not necessarily because the proposed dating partner was an FFB turned BT- mismatches may arise from a myriad of situations. However your point is well-taken and made me re-read the post with a new perspective. She’s right. Jaded is about this: What could that lady have been thinking? We’ve mocked the purported “CTBATD”* scenario elsewhere but isn’t that exactly what the unfortunate lady in the story did here? M - So my point was brought up wise and was well taken that must mean i’m movin up in spiritual thread life. Also. Obviously yenta matchmakers should be avoided like the new superbug. They should be forced to do community service for every divorce they have a hand or investment in. If you think about it the whole concept of a matchmaker is beyond absolutely absurd and should be done away with. Why anyone would consult with one is beyond my level of logical comprehension. There is actually another large problem in this complex post. Its whats happens when there is a distinct dearth of intellectualism among religious women. Have you checked out the recent lecture offerings in the New York New Jersey area that allow women to attend ? Not much of a selection actually. Its not clear how Leah became religious but calling Boro Park home is distinctly disconcerting actually. Why on earth is Leah in Boro Park yearning for challah baking bake offs and baby walking ?Bad choices are bound to follow. And thats probally how hazardous hareidi guy managed to slip into the picture without even a second guessing. When I first read the piece. I was just distracted by the blatant “non-equal opportunity understanding” when the piece was describing why the marriage went rusty and felt the need to point out the discrepencies even if it meant sticking up for a hazardous to your health born again hareidi heartbreaker. I’m obviously not a fan of hareidiism in any way or flavor born again or otherwise. And they should marry among themselves for happy marriages. But I am a (fickle) believer in working hard to understand others harness some sense of humility/lose the superiority complex/knock less and respect more though there is so little to respect these days. I’ve had way more than my fair share of outrageous screwy interactions with less than stellar examples of religious people over the years and recently. I swear off religion often. I wish I could use my experiences as excuses but I just have my poor choices to fall back on. But maybe if there was more of an emphasis on religious intellectual lectures and classes (gemara for starters) that allow women to join and argue judaism would be a happier place and women would stay religious longer. Or I was thinking we could start a hillel on the roof association for holy women who want to learn in the bais medrash but cant. We would have to pick synagogues that have clear sun roofs though. It could be kind of fun and an interesting way to learn. There are just way too many of those everywhere rabbis clearly honor seeking junkies fanning their fan club with public displays of caring confetti fanfare and pseudo spiritual fare / cotton candy/parsha stories and a sugar headache. Life cant get any fluffier and funner ! “Its not clear how Leah became religious but calling Boro Park home is distinctly disconcerting actually. Why on earth is Leah in Boro Park yearning for challah baking bake offs and baby walking ? Bad choices are bound to follow” “But I am a (fickle) believer in working hard to understand others harness some sense of humility/lose the superiority complex/knock less and respect more” If you read the lines all the lines of the initial post that is you might appreciate what you seem to classify as contradictions a little more. The post is a rant on how the spiritual bliss girl was screwed by the hareidi heart throb with less than savory desires. I’m thinking that perhaps a large player in this unfortunate connection is the fun fact that she relocated to boro park and fell in love with all it had to offer up to and including the hareidi heart breaker. Its always good to focus on the source of dysfunctional happenstance and the subsequent misconstrued religious stances individuals sometimes fall hard off of. Stuff Like how she fell in love with boro park to begin with and why. Not that there is anything wrong with that !Everyone is free to learn whatever lessons they want from this story ànd question whatever they deem questionable. You can feel free to ignore my questions. Or you can Feel free to focus on other fun facts not questions like the less than savory desires that are not named or the fact that only spiritual bliss girl gets any understanding about her background. Religious individuals get screwed by other religious individuals all the time. They sometimes run the other way ànd never look back. But small difference the whole tinok shenishbah thing does not apply and wings its way straight out the window cuz they are supposed to know better being born religious ànd all. So there is no peanut gallery calling for a better understanding or whatever. Anyway please do not take any of my opinions as support for hareidism in any way. I’m just trying to understand emphasis on the understand ! why on earth of all fun communities she chose boro park. The answer might give me or you a deeper ünderstanding ànd appreciation for all things boro park ! Am I allowed to question in my quest for deeper understandings of how things go wrong on a public post. Or am I supposed to understand that questions are not part of the unadulterated understanding equation. “I’m just trying to understand emphasis on the understand ! why on earth of all fun communities she chose boro park. The answer might give me or you a deeper ünderstanding ànd appreciation for all things boro park!” Perhaps you are but in previous postings it sounded like you had it all figured out already and IMHO it didn’t jibe with the lofty goals of seeking greater understanding prior to making judgements and of course knocking less. For one thing the Rabbeim she consulted which likely were from Boro Park as well gave what appears to be sound advice. I can envision people who on one hand would criticize them for not taking an even “stronger” stand but if they did say in the form of physical intervention take a stronger stand they would be criticized for being patronizing towards women. “Am I allowed to question in my quest for deeper understandings of how things go wrong on a public post. Or am I supposed to understand that questions are not part of the unadulterated understanding equation” Are you turning this into some kind of martyrdom issue? This give-and-take started with my own questions. And one was how you can resolve the idea of seeking greater understanding prior to judgements when it seemed like the conclusions were already drawn in the same post. Are we on the same thread here ?You started off by questioning me on the connection or calling for a reconciliation between a question I had asked sandwiched in between two opinions and a lofty sentiment or two that I had blackberried in a moment of spiritual delirium. My answer is I reserve the right to question anything for the sake of understanding. I can also question with an occasional opinion tacked on. Hope that’s ok with you. As for my other points in this thread,I’m reading a lot of unanswered questions and a few opinions that you are not obligated to agree on. Also what sound advice from rebbes are you referring to ? His blessing ànd offers of concern should anything go wrong. Sound indeed ! Its sound advice like these heartfelt blessings instead of full disclosurings that make me want to start investing so much more of my faith in the spiritual cotton candy like blessings stocks I just had this conversation/argument with an individual on the advice he received from the neighborhood rabbi. His advice for complex concerns ànd serious marital issues is fluffier than the first batch of cotton candy at a carnival. Ora its not clear whether or not her rosh Yeshiva and rav are from Boro Park. And even if they are Boro park people,the question for understanding still remains why on earth did she choose boro park. If I move to Amsterdam the community I join and the friends and concepts I fall in love with would probally me more influential than any rosh yeshivs or rav who gives me some shows of concerns and a directive or two. Even if my rosh yeshiva lives in Amsterdam too. Why I moved to Amsterdam might be a good question to consider when I fall in love with the way of living there which may or may not be good for me and or start marrying the wrong men there same with leah I think. Maybe. Maybe not. Whatever. The point regarding Boro Park is that your making harsh and negative generalizations about the place you claim it was the cause of Leah’s malaise and you’re implying that she brought some or all of it onto herself by choosing BP as her place of residence. You’re right it’s not clear that her Rosh Yeshiva and Rav are from Boro Park but it’s also not clear why she selected it. However that lack of clarity did not prevent you from jumping to an ostensibly condescending conclusion that her sole motivation was “yearning for challah baking bake offs and baby walking” That type of condescension is not in sync with the lofty goals you announced of “working hard to understand others harness some sense of humility/lose the superiority complex/knock less and respect more” AFAIC it’s just as likely that she selected Boro Park not because of the types of people that set her up for that tragedy but despite: Case in point her Rabbeim who offered sound advice to run from the ill-advised shidduch. Bob Miller and Jacob HallerYou are so right and I apologize for any negative non positive and or condescending connotations. AlsoI’d like to take this unique opportunity to invite you to the first annual boro park biblical bake a thon. Featuring let them eat cake lectures and how to bake your cake for the sake of gd and eat it too how tos. Mesmerizing sponge cake testimonies on how I absorbed all of religion in one simple baking. Marble cake musings on how I lost my marbles and found them in a boro park communityAnd so much more !Discover a whole new dimension to the baking experience. Men ladies children and babies welcome. My understanding of the FFB/BT “Michlov” husband was that he wanted to be BT but wasn’t really. He tried to return to his community but still had desires for a non-frum lifestyle. So it’s not a story saying “don’t marry FFBs who were once off the derech,” but “be careful about marrying certain kinds of FFBs.” Unfortunately. I know of two women here in Israel with similar stories. It wasn’t an issue of their surroundings as they were from two very different backgrounds and hashkafot. The issue. IMO was just being a bit too desperate to get married and a bit too naive about human nature about how easy it is to make a marriage work and about what it takes to make a marriage work. In both cases if the young women in question had brought their families and rabbis/mentors into the process things could have ended differently but they rushed full steam ahead while ignoring any advice that they didn’t want to hear. I’m not sure what can be done to avoid situations like these. I advise all of my BT friends to date for at least a certain amount of time say 4-6 months (or more depending on circumstances). I know that in some communities that’s considered a long time but IMO BTs have more issues to work out than two FFBs who come from virtually identical backgrounds (even the FFBs should date for at least a few weeks. IMO). After all the goal isn’t to get married it’s to stay married. 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on bad4shidduchims communicate prompted me to create verbally this affix. She wrote about references and how some can't be trusted to furnish honest adjust information. I undergo my own story about references. To say. I also am worried about my references not giving bring together information. I have one friend in particular that if she decides that the inquiring party doesn't appear desire they are on the ball and I probably wouldn't be interested anyway(don’t ask me based on what criteria she makes this assumption) she will give info in a way that ordain move them off. I am lucky that one shidduch didn't evaluate her reports because her information contradicted what they had heard until then. They asked the shadchan to call me and ask if the information they heard from this friend was adjust. I was shocked that she would say things like that (desire I would be my husband to take me out to concerts and ballgames and restaurants which is TOTALLY NOT TRUE! I don't have any interest in any of the above and wouldn't go anyway!) and when I confronted her first she denied it and then she excused it by saying it is not a shidduch in any case. (By the way all my stories about friends doing and saying offensive things are all about the same one or two friends. I undergo many other amazing friends that have proven their loyalty and friendship measure and time again.) I took her off my list of references but I still had that nagging mind that maybe someone ordain comfort call her because I had given out her name and number quite a few times before. I once met a teacher from high school and she told me that someone just called her about me. This woman (the young man in challenge's sister) also said that they were hearing one thing regarding how long I wanted my preserve to hit the books (that's a displace affix) and it didn't make comprehend that I would want my husband to hit the books for just 1-2 years based on everything else they heard. This teacher told me that she tried convincing them that it wasn't adjust but what this woman said put doubts in her mind as to what I really want. She was so happy to cater me so that she can clarify. I told her then what exactly I am hoping for and she suggested that I should have someone call all my references and see who is saying these things. I felt very uncomfortable doing that but I did communicate to all my friends and they all said that they never say I be such a short-term learner. B'h the shadchan in this case again clarified with me and I ended up going out with that boy. Back to the story that is connected with the title of this affix. My family has a close family friend that had a daughter that was looking for a shidduch for a few years. Whenever a boy from BMG was suggested they always called my brother for information. They believe him implicitly because he made their first daughters shidduch and made a few others so he obviously has an understanding of people. His words had the power to alter or break a shidduch. Recently they called him about a boy and my brother really entangle it was a good idea. He gave raving good information and really got them pumped up about it. Sure enough a few weeks after this call the bring together’s engagement was announced. A few days later my brother calls me and tells me " You are not going to believe this". What happened? He got approve to yeshiva after bein hazmanim and realized he gave information on the wrong boy. He has no idea why he mixed them up. He said that if he would have given information on the boy that they were really asking about it would have been very different and probably not as enthusiastic. It is so amazing that Hashem made my brother get confused so that they should hear such good things about the boy that turned out to be their future son-in-law. We must act on believing.... desire anonymous said usually the reason a reference will fasten in her own two (harmful)cents is because if she isn't engaged yet she wants to baffle your chances of getting engaged before her because she wouldnt be able to command you being engaged before her the reasons for that is that she would conclude inferior to you that she isn't good enough that nobody wants her;in bunco just plain insecurity since in this case this friend of yours is married i would say the reason she is doing this to you. A:Because she is not a loyal friend and does NOT undergo your beat interest in mind and B: She relishes being in the role of the married experienced know it all friend. You getting engaged will make her feel that she's on the same aim as you again and then she's not any better than you. Also then the competition starts; whose husband is better looking more accomplished whose shaitel is nicer who has prettier kids and so on.. you get the picture. Half shared i'm sure you realize this already but this friend is not and has never been a true friend to you. Just look around: there are so many nicer populate to be friends with. Go for them! Good Luck! anon friend wow b'h it worked out for you. I had a similar story once too. A shadchan called my mother and said that she redt me to a guy but the boy’s mother met someone in the grocery and asked her if she by any come about knows me. This woman did not the only thing we had in common was that we live in the same town. I anticipate she wanted to appear helpful and knowledgeable so she told the mother that I'm very change intensity. Now anyone that knows me can verify that I am not change intensity. I am not loud at all and I'm not the life of the celebrate but I was never described as change intensity let alone VERY quiet but this woman I anticipate felt I'm change intensity because when I pass her in the streets I don't do a jig or sing or say hi. I don't know but these people were turned off and never gave me a come about. They didn't even bother checking into it further. I anticipate it wasn't bashert but still if you don't undergo anything cause to be perceived to say don't say anything. That's my motto corner yes but I wonder no longer. She taught me the definition of friend without the R the dreamer. Are you serious? That is bad! Every girl changes from 6th evaluate. How can anyone locate anything on what a 6th evaluate teacher says?bas melech it is so adjust. We see it over and over again girloutofsem. I hope you never have such experiences and that shidduchim should go much smoother and easier than it is for me bad4shidduchim. Really? And did she find it satisfactory?aidel. You are not being naive. Most friends don't act things into their own hands. Also. I experience this friend usually gives great information just she doesn't always use her hit. And that is not good. Scraps. OH yeah. Frustrating is a good way to exposit it. By the way accept approve! I missed you here on blogland. Anon. That is what I hear though I can't fully understand it. I always gave amazing information on my friend. I totally understood that my friend’s happiness can't take away my own so why should I deny it of her? I loved giving information but I don't get calls anymore because they are all married. Now they are paying me approve.. the apple. I did act her off my enumerate but her label still goes around because people have her name from before. Can't always undergo control over who they call red light. You are 100% right. I just gave so much to this friend that it is hard for me to believe she would do this to me. Also they say the more you furnish the more you like and I really love my friend even though she hurt me. as a align point- I am constantly (desire very often!!!) asked about a girl from my community growing up. I know I am given as a compose and undergo.

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A guy is driving around Dublin when he sees a sign in front of a accommodate:"Talking Dog For Sale."He rings the attach and the owner tells him the dog is in the backyard. The guy goes into the backyard and sees a Labrador sitting there."You communicate?" he asks."Yes," the Lab replies."So what's the story?"The Lab looks up and says. "Well. I discovered that I could communicate when I was pretty young. I wanted to back up the government so I told the Gardaabout my enable and in no time at all they had me jetting from country tocountry sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping. I was one of their most valuable spies foreight years running.""But the jetting around really tired me out and I knew I wasn'tgetting any younger so I decided to lay down. I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover securitywandering near suspicious characters and listening in.""I uncovered some incredible dealings and was awarded a batch of medals. I got married had a load of puppies and now I'm just retired."The guy is amazed. He goes back in and asks the owner what he wants forthe dog."Ten euros." the man says."Ten euros? This dog is amazing. Why on hide are you selling him socheap?""Because he's a liar. He never did any of that shite."

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Out Of The Mailbag - To YW Editor (From Chasunah To Foreclosure)Dear Editor. My neighbor. Simcha married off his daughter about six months ago. I went to the Chasuna which was in one of the wedding halls in the neighborhood. The ballroom was set up for the hundreds of guests. Simcha's daughters looked beautiful in their stunning gowns the food was excellent and the music was very leibidig. Another beautiful Jewish Wedding. I sat down as they served the chicken and as I was about to comprehend the food. I looked at my friend Bentzi to my right. He also looked quite sick to his stomach. It wasn't that Simcha owed each of us thousands of dollars with no way of paying it approve. That wasn't the problem at all. The problem was that Simcha borrowed to pay the caterer but he paid with his sholom bayis out of his take. The money for the beautiful clothing was not his but the sleepless nights were his. The bind was paid by someone else but he paid with his own health. The guy who lent him for the photographer will never get paid back but his children paid with suffering of their own. Ladies and gentlemen tomorrow his HOUSE is up for sell since it has been in foreclosure for four months! (Every single dilate in this story is true). Are we totally out of our minds? Are we crazy? Why are we doing this to ourselves? gratify tell me how we can fix this way of life that we are all being sucked into?A disturbed reader http://www theyeshivaworld com/index php?p=9628

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Is it possible the Shidach crisis is a problem of our own making? I think that this is largely the case. Some people might contend that there even is a Shidach crisis but it’s pretty easy to disown them. Just ask any single living on the upper west align of New York. But the problem is not only with the modern Orthodox single that mostly populates that part of the city. It is a study problem for the ultra Orthodox world of Yeshivos as well. The only population that seems to undergo escaped this phenomenon is the Chasidic one where Shiduchim are made entirely by the parents and the couple meets only one or at most two times. Although I’m sure that there are some singles in the Chasidic community that do undergo affect getting married. I accept it is miniscule compared to the rest of the Orthodox world. The focus of this article is the world of Yeshivos. This community is large and growing quite rapidly. Part of that growth is the ‘act to the alter’ by many formerly modern Orthodox young people. They have adopted the Yeshiva framework for dating which has added to the problem. A large part of problem as I see it is that opportunities for young people to meet are becoming fewer and fewer as time goes on. There is now more reliance than ever before on Shadchanim whether professional or not. They are increasingly becoming the sole obtain for young people to cater. And this situation has created its own set impediments. That did not used to be the inspect. There used to be a time when opportunities for young people to cater were quite common and normal. There were opportunities at weddings a Kiddush in Shul on Shabbos or at the home of a family friend… just to label a few. In fact there is a famous story about a young Yeshiva University student who had adopted a Yeshivashe mentality. He attended the wedding of a friend and open out that he was seated at a table consisting of women and men together. He went over to Rav Ahron Soloveichik and complained about being seated together with hit women. Rav Aharon supposedly retorted. “So what?” “How do you evaluate I met my wife?”There was also the fact that a young man who met a young woman would decide to call her on his own and ask her out on a go out. In modern Orthodoxy this is comfort the inspect but they undergo an entirely different set of issues which is not the cerebrate of this essay. In the world of Yeshivos this was not as common but it definitely existed. But in the main Shadchanim were used and many if not most Shiduchim were made for Yeshiva Bachurim that way.'EndTheMadness' fail Chananya Weissman in an interview in the points out that many students from fine modern Orthodox Jewish homes who have been taught perfectly good values well within Halacha about how to interact with the opposite sex… go away to Israel for a year. And they end up being indoctrinated into the Yeshiva dating mentality. Casual meetings between the sexes are either discouraged or forbidden. This has resulted in perfectly good Shiddach opportunities to be lost. What has developed is something quite extreme and even brutal. Instead of young people investigating each other on a date and finding commonality of Hashkafa and purpose… and seeing if they are kindred spirits and compatible personalities they now rely on Shadchanim to do such things now. But there is no way a Shadchan can regenerate the individual themselves. The Shadchan is at beat a Shaliach an agent of the young person with a personality prejudice of their own. No matter who perceptive or intuitive they are it cannot replace the young person’s own be. And it is quite likely that a be ordain never be proposed that wouldmight be a good be. What is probably more the inspect is that people that are very incompatible are set up. But that’s only move of the problem. What has change state in vogue in recent years are sets of irrelevant questions asked of potential Shiduchim which are often petty and even stupid. Like whether a parent uses only white delay linen on Shabbos. And there are many such stupid questions upon which Shidach dates are accepted or rejected. What has happened in the world of Yeshivos is that parents who hire professional Shadchanim are now custom designing the Shiddach they want for their children. And of course the more requirements one has on the Shiddach one seeks for their child the less there Shiduchim there are that can fulfill those requirements. Of cover everyone wants only the best for their child. Every parent would desire to have Mechutanim (in-laws) that they get along with come up. But the result of all these ‘requirements’ and the lack of opportunities is that there are a lot of singles in the Yeshiva world now. Yet when a single turns thirty all of a sudden many of the ‘unkosher’ venues are now opened up for them. And the older they get the more they are opened up. That shouldn’t be the case. There ought to be more avenues for people to meet and this move to the extreme right which is so counterproductive.

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We are approve! I am really sorry about the downtime. Here is what happened: after the hack incident from 2 weeks ago we decided to switch to a new hosting company. When trying to load the database we kept getting strange errors and after some checking discovered that our new server had a bad hard plough! After that we just had to wait for them to first check what was going on and then finally give us a new server. Powered by © 2001. 2007 phpBB Group 2004-2007 imamother com - All rights reservedImamother is a trademark and a copyrighted composition.

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