2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
5 RONALD J. ZONEN. Sr. Deputy District Attorney
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
11 For Defendant: COLLINS. MESEREAU. REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU. JR.. ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East. Suite 700 Los Angeles. California 90067
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER. ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street. Suite C
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN. ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs. California 90670
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as “N” on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index. Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7 Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
18 Q. Mr. Klapakis did you suggest last week that
19 because of your discussions with the FBI you delayed
21 A. “Last week,” do you mean Wednesday?
22 Q. Oh that’s right. That’s right. You’re
23 right. How about Wednesday did you suggest that
24 the FBI — your discussions with the FBI had
25 something to do with a one-year delay in analyzing
27 A. No my discussion with the FBI had to do
28 with basically doing background investigations for 4415
2 Q. Did you suggest that the Department of
3 Justice and the State of California does not do
5 A. What I suggested was that their priorities
6 are for other agencies and we can do fingerprints
16 Q. Do you know somebody named George Levine of
22 Q. And what does he do to your knowledge?
23 A. Well he does a lot of things but I believe
26 A. Oh. I think George has been with the agency
27 longer than I have been with the sheriff’s
1 Q. Have you worked with him on fingerprint
4 Q. Now did you suggest to the jury that
5 because it took so long to separate pages out of
6 magazines that fingerprint analysis in this case
9 Q. What did you suggest when you told the jury
10 about the laborious process of removing pages from
12 A. Well that it was a multi-phase process and
13 that we wanted to — there were several things that
14 we had to do. We wanted to maintain control over
15 the evidence and not piecemeal it out. And because
16 portions of the magazines were in different
17 locations we had to do those phases at different
19 Q. And are you saying that contributed to a
22 Q. Okay. And how long was the delay in
23 analyzing fingerprints that you would attribute to
24 separating out pages from magazines?
25 A. I’m not quite sure I understand the
27 Q. You’ve said that separating pages out from
28 magazines caused a delay in analyzing fingerprints. 4417
6 Q. Are you attributing that delay exclusively
7 to your need to separate out pages from magazines?
9 Q. Okay. Now as the head of the search of Mr.
10 Jackson’s residence you were in charge of
11 determining what forensic tests would be done of
12 anything found in the residence true?
14 Q. Did you ask for any forensic tests on any
15 bottles that seemed to contain alcoholic beverages?
17 Q. Do you know if any forensic tests were done
18 on bottles that seemed to contain alcoholic
19 beverages found at Mr. Jackson’s residence?
21 Q. You saw bottles that seemed to contain
22 alcoholic beverages in the wine cellar correct?
23 A. I believe some of the investigators did,
25 Q. And you found bottles that seemed to contain
3 Q. You found bottles that seemed to contain
4 alcoholic beverages in Mr. Jackson’s bedroom true?
5 A. Yes there was a bottle of alcohol in his
7 Q. Do you know if any forensic tests were ever
8 done on any bottles that seemed to contain alcoholic
9 beverages in Mr. Jackson’s bedroom?
11 Q. Did it ever occur to you that trying to
12 determine whose fingerprints were on bottles of that
13 sort might have merit in the investigation?
14 A. Well it would — my belief is is that we
15 were talking about something that occurred eight
16 months prior to the service of the search warrant,
18 Q. How long do fingerprints tend to last on
19 surfaces based upon your experience as a police
21 A. They can last that long at least.
24 Q. Given what you had heard about potential
25 charges did it ever occur to you that trying to see
26 whose fingerprints were on glasses or bottles,
27 glasses that seemed to have contained or are used to
28 contain alcoholic beverages or bottles that seem to 4419
1 contain alcoholic beverages might be relevant?
5 Q. When the search went on in Michael Jackson’s
6 home did you have a particular location where you
11 understand. Did I have a desk or a chair?
12 Q. Did you — as head of the search did you
13 have a central location in the residence of Mr.
14 Jackson where people came back and forth to report
18 Q. So were you essentially walking around the
20 A. I was moving about the estate yes.
21 Q. Okay. And were you supervising what people
27 Q. Did you ever ask for any fingerprint
7 Q. Did you ever ask for a fingerprint analysis
8 of a lot of the mannequin-type toys you found in Mr.
11 Q. Did you ever ask for a fingerprint analysis
12 of anything you saw on the floor in Mr. Jackson’s
14 A. If some magazine material was found on the
16 Q. Was the fingerprint analysis you requested
19 Q. Did you ever request any fingerprint
25 Q. How about any of the doors you have to go
28 Q. Now other than fingerprints and DNA 4421
1 analysis is there any other type of forensic test
2 you wanted done during the day of that search?
4 Q. Were the forensic tests that you asked to be
5 done limited to looking for DNA and looking for
7 A. Well we — I also believe that photography
8 is part of forensic work and so we photographed the
9 different rooms of the estate and different things
10 of that nature but limiting it to that yes.
11 Q. Was any effort ever made to see if you could
12 find fibers hair or material in Mr. Jackson’s
13 bedroom that you could link to any of the Arvizos?
14 A. Well when we took the bedding from Mr.
15 Jackson’s bed. I wasn’t limiting it to biological
16 fluids. I was limiting — basically. I wanted a
17 complete analysis of anything that they found out
18 there. So we took the — all the bedding and left
19 it to the examiners to determine what evidence might
21 Q. And clearly you never found any of the
22 Arvizos’ DNA in that bedding correct?
24 Q. And you never found their hair or fibers in
27 Q. And you never found any of their prints on
28 any furniture linked to Mr. Jackson’s bed correct? 4422
8 Q. Let’s go back to some of the things you were
9 talking about last Wednesday that Mr. Mesereau was
10 asking you about and specifically the execution of
12 You were asked by Mr. Mesereau about what
13 you typically do in a typical murder case. Not that
14 there’s really a typical murder case. But with
15 regard to a murder case that occurs in a residence,
16 all right? When you have a murder case that occurs
17 in a residence what are you legally required to do
18 in order to process the crime scene?
19 A. We have to obtain a search warrant.
20 Q. And when you obtain a search warrant from a
21 judge to allow you to process the crime scene of a
22 residence are there ordinarily any time limitations
23 placed upon you in terms of how long you can remain
24 at the residence to complete the process of the
26 A. No. We could — it could take a day it
27 could take a week. Whatever it takes to process the
1 Q. And have there been cases involving your
2 agency in which crime scenes have been secured and
3 processed over the — over days and weeks?
5 Q. Have you ever in your experience and to
6 your knowledge with the sheriff’s department had a
7 residence and a ranch of the size of Mr. Jackson’s
10 Q. And just so the jury’s clear on this there
20 A. Well it involved a very large main house on
21 the estate. It also involved different buildings on
22 the estate. It — the estate the house was packed
23 with a lot of things that we had to go through. We
24 had to make sure that we were very careful with
25 them. And the search also conducted was in
26 different locations within the estate.
27 Q. Did you know at the time that you executed
28 the search warrant on November the 18th. 2003. 4424
1 whether or not Mr. Jackson was present on the ranch?
2 A. We were not aware that he was on the ranch.
3 Q. Now with regard to the time constraints
4 given to you with the execution of the search
5 warrant on Mr. Jackson’s ranch what time
10 A. Well. I had asked you if we could write in
11 the search warrant that we could take a couple of
12 days or more to conduct this search because of the
13 size of the estate plus the other things involved
14 in this investigation other searches. And through
15 that discussion it was decided that we were going
16 to have to do it within one day so as not to burden
17 the ranch and its employees with our presence longer
19 Q. And was there some relationship between the
20 amount of time and the number of personnel that you
21 needed to do it within the time constraints that you
23 A. Well based on the size of the estate we
24 felt that in order to get it done within that time
25 frame we had to have an abundance of personnel. It
27 Q. All right. Now with regard to the
28 questions Mr. Mesereau asked you about whether you 4425
1 gave any instructions to the people who were under
2 your supervision during the execution of the search
3 warrant; do you recall that question?
7 Q. You were also asked by Mr. Mesereau whether
8 or not you had — whether or not there were media
9 that were — that came outside the ranch on the
10 second search warrant that was executed almost a
11 year later in December of 2004. Do you recall that?
13 Q. And with regard to the source of the
14 information that was given to the media to your
15 knowledge was the sheriff’s department responsible
18 Q. And to your knowledge was it somebody
19 connected outside of the sheriff and law enforcement
22 Q. Now. Mr. Mesereau asked you several
23 questions about items that were found at certain
24 locations and used the word “unlocked.” To your
25 knowledge was the wine cellar unlocked when you
26 folks first got into the building on the morning of
1 Q. And with regard to the closets in Mr.
2 Jackson’s bedroom where the alcohol was located to
3 your knowledge was that locked or unlocked at the
4 time it was first approached by your folks?
5 A. His bedroom was locked and alarmed.
6 Q. And the closet in which the two bottles of
7 alcohol were found was that closet locked or
8 unlocked at the time that your folks first
9 approached that closet and opened it?
10 A. The — I’m not sure of the location you’re
14 Q. And the closets in the master suite?
15 A. I’m not sure of that. I know I wasn’t the
16 one of first ones to enter into the master suite. I
17 know the — I was — excuse me. I was the first –
18 one of the first ones to enter the master suite.
19 But as to the closets. I can’t tell you.
21 A. One closet was locked. It was on the — it
22 was on the left side library or left side bathroom,
23 excuse me. There was a locked door there.
24 Q. The one with the Jacuzzi-type tub?
26 Q. Okay. Now before you executed the search
27 warrant or before the search warrant was executed on
28 November 18th were you aware of the interviews that 4427
1 had been conducted with the Arvizo children?
3 Q. And were you aware of the information that
4 they had provided about the interior of Mr.
7 Q. At the time that you were executing your
8 search warrant on November the 18th of 2003 how
9 much time had elapsed between the time that you had
10 information that the crimes were committed and the
11 time you were executing the warrant?
13 Q. Now at that time. Mr. Mesereau asked you
14 whether or not you took any prints off the balcony
15 or whether you looked for hair or fibers or anything
16 else. Was there a reason that wasn’t really an
17 important part of the investigation at that
19 A. It just didn’t enter into the investigation
22 A. Well we were — we had certain information
23 regarding the crimes. We went in to the search
24 looking for those things. Our search was limited in
25 time and we were doing several other things,
26 interviews other searches in other locations.
27 The — this investigation was atypical because it
28 entered into other — other crimes other overt acts 4428
2 Q. With regard to the presence of the Arvizo
3 children in Mr. Jackson’s master bedroom and in the
4 suite itself at the time you were executing the
5 search warrant can you tell us whether or not there
6 was any doubt in the investigators’ minds that they
8 A. No they described it uniquely and it — we
9 actually knew where we were going when we –
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Calls for hearsay
11 and speculation. And also it’s improper.
13 MR. SNEDDON: Judge what’s the basis?
14 Because I may be able to cure it. Because I didn’t
16 THE COURT: Well you’re talking about what
17 was in the other investigators’ minds.
18 MR. SNEDDON: I’m sorry then I can cure it.
19 Q. With regard to what was in your mind as the
20 lead investigator during the course of the execution
21 of this search warrant were you aware of the
22 information that the Arvizo children had provided to
26 that have an impact on you with regard to trying to
27 prove whether or not they were ever in those rooms?
28 A. No they had described it. And when we 4429
1 entered the room it fit their description.
2 Q. All right. Mr. Mesereau asked you one
3 other — another question with regard to whether –
4 you were trying to explain what — he uses the word
5 “delay” in the processing of the print. And you
6 answered the question. “No.” Why was there no –
7 you didn’t consider that to be a delay of over a
9 A. As Mr. Mesereau stated latents can stay on
10 an object for a long time. We were protecting the
11 items of evidence. They were in different
12 locations. We were conducting our processes as we
13 were able to. And ultimately we were able to
14 develop and stabilize the latents that we felt were
16 Q. Were there other items that were taken that
17 you believe could have been processed for forensic
19 A. Sure. We could have fingerprinted some
22 Q. With regard to this particular case there
27 Q. Was there a conscious decision made with
28 regard to those particular books and processing them 4430
2 A. Right. The — the books in a discussion
3 with Mr. Zonen was — we determined not to conduct
4 a latent fingerprint examination on them because
5 the process to do so would have one destroyed the
6 book and made the pages toxic. Mr. Zonen preferred
7 to keep the book in its original condition and so
8 the decision was made not to attempt the latent
10 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you. Nothing further.
19 Q. Your investigation. I’m talking about you
20 personally. Lieutenant began approximately June
21 13th. 2003 when you were contacted by Attorney
25 A. If that’s — I began in February 2003.
26 Q. Okay. But in the operations plan that was
27 developed and typed up for the search that you were
28 in charge of you attached a case timeline correct? 4431
1 A. The sergeant who developed the ops plan did,
8 A. Certainly mine. Sergeant Roble’s.
9 Q. With respect to that search you talk about
10 you being contacted by Attorney Larry Feldman on
13 Q. Okay. Do you know why that timeline doesn’t
14 include the investigation you were doing much
16 A. The ops plan is basically the synopsis a
17 brief synopsis of giving the investigators some
18 background on our investigation. I can’t tell you
19 why it didn’t have the February information.
20 Q. And the timeline associated with the
21 operations plan doesn’t include the fact that you
22 personally called the Department of Children &
23 Family Services and asked them not to interview the
25 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor this is beyond the
4 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Your Honor we’ll call as
6 THE COURT: When you get to the witness
7 stand please remain standing. Face the clerk and
27 A. I’m the president of Affordable Telephone
28 Systems in Ventura. California. 4433
1 Q. And what is Affordable Telephone Systems?
2 A. We’re an AT&T equipment dealer.
3 Q. And what do you do for Affordable Telephone
6 Q. All right. Do you actually go out to sites
7 and perform services in relation to telephones
12 Q. Do you have a background in — do you have
13 any training in the area of telephone systems?
15 Q. Could you describe that for me please?
16 A. I was trained by AT&T Corporation.
19 Q. What kind of training did you receive?
20 A. Technical training on their systems from
22 Q. And how long did this training take place,
25 Q. All right. And I take it you’ve had some
26 hands-on experience with this subject matter?
28 Q. Over the 20 years you have performed 4434
6 Q. Okay. On December 3rd. 2004 did you visit
13 A. To inspect the telephone system at the
14 ranch. And to give information on how the phone
15 system was configured programmed and would operate.
16 Q. Were you accompanied by law enforcement
21 Q. First of all tell me what type of system
24 A. It’s manufactured by AT&T. It’s called a
25 Merlin II system is the model. It’s a — we call it
27 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the Merlin II
6 A. We — we inspected and looked at how many
7 telephone lines that were — from the telephone
8 company on the property were installed in the
9 system. We logged and inventoried all of the
10 telephones at each location on the system on the
11 property and looked at how the system was
12 programmed in terms of how you could make a call
13 out how you could receive a call. You know the
14 typical aspects of how the system would work.
15 Q. And how many lines did you find that system
16 included how many different telephone lines?
17 A. On the property there’s a total of 24
18 telephone lines or numbers telephone numbers that
19 come onto the property. Of those 24 lines there
20 are eight lines that’s connected to the Merlin II
22 Q. Okay. And the remaining 24 — I guess we
26 A. There’s one — there was one line that was
27 not — that was not on the system of the eight.
28 There were 15 lines that were connected to modems or 4436
2 Q. Okay. Were all of those 15 lines being
4 A. They had dial tone. I don’t know if they
5 were being used. There was dial tone at what we
6 call the demarc. Some of them might have been used;
7 some of them might not have been used.
8 Q. What did you say the demarc or the –
9 A. The demarcation point from Verizon.
10 Q. I see. And where is that located?
11 A. That’s located in the garage where the
23 Q. And did you inspect a phone that was located
24 in what’s known as Mr. Jackson’s personal bedroom?
1 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Mr. Green. I show
2 you — go ahead and help yourself to some water.
4 Q. I show you People’s Exhibit No. 165. Can
6 A. That is a Merlin 34 button telephone.
13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I believe this exhibit’s
19 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. Thank you.
20 Q. All right. Mr. Green can you just briefly
21 describe for the jury how this telephone works?
22 A. Sure. This telephone — okay. All right.
23 You have — if you lift the handset and you
24 want to make a call out this system is programmed,
25 what we call in the phone industry pooled. What I
26 mean by that is all eight lines on the phone system,
27 on all the other phones on the property they –
28 they are a ten-button phone except this phone. On 4438
1 this phone you have your telephone lines that are
2 on each button here. Each of the eight lines.
3 So if I — from this telephone. I can
4 manually push this black button right here or any
5 of these black buttons and I can manually select
6 any one of the eight lines that I want to make a
8 On the — I don’t know if I’m jumping ahead,
9 but on the other telephone sets they don’t have the
10 lines that appear individually on a button. You
11 just — you just press a pooled button and the
12 telephone system selects at random a line that
13 you’re going to call out on. And you enter an
14 account code and then you get a dial tone and you
15 make that outside call and you can — from the
17 Q. All right. So the other phones on the
18 ranch — well let me start with was there another
19 phone that had similar capabilities on the ranch?
20 A. Yes. There were two phones — yes there
21 are two phones on the ranch that you could select a
22 line to call out on or — or listen in to a
23 telephone conversation on. That other telephone set
24 was in the — I would call it the administrative
25 office on the ranch. It’s a larger console larger
27 Q. Okay. And was that in a separate building
2 Q. Can you tell me — approximate its location
4 A. Yeah. It was in what I call the big
5 administrative office. It wasn’t a security office.
6 It was up the hill. It was the — it was the
7 administrative office the best I know it.
8 Q. All right. Now if I understand correctly,
9 the other phones on the property you could not
10 select which line you were going to use?
11 A. Correct. The other phones on the property
12 looked just like this phone except this row and
13 this row of buttons were not there. It’s a
14 ten-button phone. So it looked exactly like this,
15 minus — if I could just draw down here exit that
17 Q. You’re indicating the right-hand portion of
20 Q. Now but you still could not — you have
21 these eight buttons or it looks like –
23 Q. Yeah two lines of buttons on the left.
26 Q. Would that allow that person on a — let’s
27 say in the guest room would that allow that person
1 A. No. No all you could do is lift the
2 handset press the pooled button and the phone
5 A. The phone cabinet. I’ll call it a CPU.
6 Q. You also mentioned that in order to get an
7 outside line you needed to enter a code. What did
11 A. The phone system was restricted to where you
12 couldn’t just pick it up have dial tone and place a
13 call. You had to enter an account code.
14 Q. So if an individual did not have the account
15 code then it would be impossible for them to talk
17 A. That’s — yes to my knowledge. Uh-huh.
18 Q. All right. Now can you tell me what the
20 A. Yes we referred to it in telephone — it’s
21 our term that I want to — I want to join a
22 conversation that’s in place or I want to listen to
24 Or in business since this is a business
25 phone system it was transferred for office business
26 use if I was on line 1 and I wanted you to join me
27 in that conversation you could press the line 1
28 button and you could join the conversation. 4441
1 Q. Okay. So in a business setting that would
2 let a secretary barge in a conversation; would that
11 surreptitiously and I mean secretly without letting
12 the parties know that you were a third party
16 A. Well from this telephone if I saw that
17 somebody — if a telephone (sic) on the property was
18 on the phone. I would see — on one of these line
19 buttons. I would see it lit. There would be a red
20 light lit. And so if I wanted to listen in on that
21 conversation all I’d have to do is press this black
22 button lift the handset press this black button,
23 and I could listen to the conversation because I’ve
24 got what we call line access. I can select the line
25 I want to listen in on on this. Or I could press
26 the speakerphone button and mute it mute the
27 microphone and press the line I wanted to listen in
1 Q. All right. And if you — well let me
2 strike that. Does that phone have instructions on
7 Q. All right. So if you didn’t know how to do
8 that you wouldn’t be able to barge in without the
9 other people’s knowledge is that fair to say if
10 you didn’t have some kind of idea about how this
15 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was,
17 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And would it be any
18 difficulty — would there be any difficulty in
19 connecting a recording device to this phone?
20 MR. SANGER: Objection; that calls for
28 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And I believe you said 4443
1 one of the ways you could listen in was on the
3 A. Yes. If you didn’t want to hold the
4 handset all you had to do is just press the
5 speakerphone and then press the “line” button and
6 you could sit there and listen to the conversation
7 without — hands-free without lifting the handset.
8 Q. Would you also want to hit the “mute”
10 A. You could also hit the “mute” button so that
11 it mutes the microphone on this telephone so the
12 caller that you are listening in on wouldn’t hear
14 Q. So they couldn’t hear you breathing or
17 Q. All right. Mr. Green did you bring — did
3 MR. SANGER: Well. I’m going to object to
6 Q. Can you identify this exhibit then?
7 A. Yes. Those are the telephone numbers that I
13 Q. Yes you may. Why don’t you check and make
14 sure that these are correct the correct numbers.
16 Q. There is one additional number on there?
23 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. Mr. Green,
24 I’m going to ask you to write that private number on
25 this exhibit at the bottom portion of it.
26 All right. So does this list contain a
27 complete listing of all the telephone numbers that
28 you found in the various systems at Neverland Ranch? 4445
2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Ask to admit People’s
3 Exhibit 298 at this time. Your Honor.
4 MR. SANGER: Your Honor. I’m going to object
5 and I’d like to approach on a very specific issue,
13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. I’m going to
14 ask to have this marked as an exhibit as well.
15 Q. Mr. Green. I show you Exhibit No. 299.
17 Q. Would you identify that for me please?
19 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: That’s the new exhibit
21 THE WITNESS: This is the report that I made
22 on December 3rd from Neverland Ranch and my
24 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Is that a complete copy
27 Q. There appears to be some handwritten items
28 on that particular report. Did you make those 4446
4 grounds of relevancy and it’s hearsay.
5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Well. I’m laying –
9 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And did you prepare
10 this report pursuant to your duties as the president
11 of Affordable Telephone Systems Incorporated?
13 Q. And have you prepared similar reports
14 concerning telephone systems as part of your duties
17 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object; relevancy.
18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I can make an offer of
21 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And so was this
22 prepared during the course of your business
23 activities at Affordable Telephone Systems?
25 Q. Was this report prepared at or near the time
26 of the event that you described in analyzing this
27 system and visiting Neverland Ranch?
28 A. Yes. I prepared — you know. I prepared 4447
1 this information at the ranch as I was — as I was
3 Q. And then did you reduce it to a writing when
10 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you write those
11 handwritten notes on there pursuant to the
12 information that you were preparing for this
15 Q. Is it just some additional handwritten
20 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: This is foundational.
21 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
22 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Was it done pursuant to
23 your preparation of this report as a business
26 Q. And was it also done at or near the time of
27 the events that are on this — reported on this
9 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Do you have a duty when
10 you prepare these reports to accurately depict the
11 information that you’ve observed when you go out to
21 THE COURT: Well your — the objection was
23 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. Ask to admit
24 No. 299 as a business record. Your Honor.
1 When did you go out and make that report?
3 THE COURT: And who requested that you go out
7 THE COURT: All right. It’s not a business
8 record. It was done in preparation of litigation
9 and it’s not admissible under the business records.
11 Q. We’ll do this — this will take a little bit
19 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Just a moment.
21 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Tell me –
22 THE COURT: You know. I don’t like to have
23 conferences but I need — I don’t know what the
24 problem with this record is that’s causing all this
25 difficulty. So would you come up here and tell me?
27 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)
28 THE COURT: It’s amazing what a little 4450
1 conference will do occasionally here. The problem,
2 which I didn’t get maybe you got was that those
3 are all Mr. Jackson’s private phone numbers and he
4 doesn’t want to receive all of those telephone
5 calls. So that was the only problem. And so we’re
6 going to work with this as best we can as long as
7 we can without revealing his personal phone
8 numbers. And I don’t know if we’ll succeed in doing
9 that but that’s what we’re going to try to do here.
10 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And that’s fine. Your
14 MR. SANGER: And I don’t have an objection
15 to the foundation being laid for 298 but I’d ask
16 the Court just procedurally to delay receiving it
18 THE COURT: They’re having trouble in the
22 Yes. Your Honor. I was just saying I don’t
23 have any objection to the foundation for 298 based
24 on this witness’s testimony at this point. I’d just
25 ask the Court to delay receiving it in evidence
28 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And that’s fine. 4451
1 THE COURT: I’ll make that ruling; that the
2 parties agree that the foundation is laid and we’ll
3 not admit it at this point until we can do something
5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: That’s fine. Thank you,
7 MR. SANGER: May I proceed. Your Honor?
15 Q. All right. Let’s just clear up a couple
16 things right off the bat here. First of all this
17 phone system this Merlin phone system that you saw
18 at Neverland Ranch is a fairly standard business
21 Q. And the Merlin phone system that you saw,
22 that particular configuration was really one that
23 was developed and used primarily in the 1980s; is
26 Q. Phone systems have actually progressed quite
27 a bit farther than what you see there right?
1 Q. And that’s the kind of phone system that in
2 the late ‘80s you might have found in executive
3 offices insurance companies lawyers and so on; is
8 Q. And in your experience with Affordable
9 Telephone Systems in Ventura have you had occasion
10 over the last 20 years to install phone systems on
13 Q. Have you ever installed a phone system on an
16 Q. Okay. Have you installed a phone system on
17 an estate that involved a working ranch?
18 A. I probably have. I don’t recall at this
20 Q. Okay. What I’m getting at is where you
21 have a number of operations going on besides a
22 residence is there anything unusual about seeing a
23 business kind of telephone system on a working
25 A. Oh no. Not at all. It’s — no.
26 Q. Okay. And what you might do. I think you’re
27 doing okay but try to talk real close to the
3 All right. And particularly with regard to
4 the Merlin system it would not be unusual to see a
5 Merlin system like that installed in a working ranch
8 Q. And the fact that this phone system has not
9 been switched out for a brand-new system is also not
12 Q. All right. So you would expect at working
13 ranches and other business locations that there are
14 probably some Merlin systems still around; is that
17 Q. All right. Now you mentioned that — you
18 were asked is it possible to attach a recording
19 device to this telephone system correct?
25 attach a recording device to just about any
28 Q. All right. So there’s nothing in particular 4454
1 that makes this phone system any more susceptible to
2 being attached to a recording device than any other,
5 Q. Now another thing we talked about here was
6 being able to pick up a line that’s either in use or
7 not in use on this particular phone correct?
9 Q. In a typical telephone installation in a
10 home where you have more than one extension is it
11 usually possible to pick up a line that’s in use in
15 phones in their home generally have just exactly
16 that system. You pick it up — if it’s in use in
17 the kitchen and you pick it up in the bedroom you
20 Q. Home systems that have more than one line
21 often have that same capability. You can pick up
22 line 1 — let’s say you have two lines. You can
23 pick up line 1 or line 2 if it’s in use correct?
25 Q. All right. Now the history of business
26 phones without going into unnecessary detail,
27 before Merlin involved a couple of different kinds
28 of technology I want to go over with you okay? The 4455
1 first one is for those of us old enough to remember
2 all this it involved the business phones that had
3 the four five lines with the buttons at the bottom
4 and a “hold” button at the end correct?
6 Q. And there might be actually an intercom
7 button on one end and the “hold” button on the end,
10 Q. And under those old systems if anybody in
11 the property that was governed by this phone system,
12 whether it be a residence a ranch or a business if
13 anybody was on line 1 everybody else on the phone
14 system could see that from their phone correct?
16 Q. And they could just push the button and pick
17 it up and they’d be on line 1 and they could
20 Q. Okay. Now in those days there were
21 speakerphones somewhat primitive as I recall. But
22 it would also be possible to put a call on a
23 speakerphone that same way and listen correct?
25 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object. It’s
26 irrelevant to phone systems that existed before this
2 Q. After that — let me withdraw that.
3 At the same time as that more rudimentary
4 system existed there was the PBX system; is that
6 A. Right there were two types. After that,
7 the equipment that you’re describing was called 1A
8 key. And then they developed a key system and a PBX
9 system at the same time. The PBX was simply a
11 Q. Okay. And the PBX system continued into
13 A. Yes and it’s still today. Uh-huh.
14 Q. PBX system would allow an operator to answer
15 the phone and then switch the calls from one place
16 to another throughout the system correct?
17 A. Correct. Or an individual could do it.
18 Q. All right. When the hybrid key system came
19 along which is the Merlin system correct?
21 Q. It was a system that allowed more
24 Q. So it would allow a — it would allow you to
25 have a master console — or in this case you have a
26 master console and you have sort of a junior master
1 Q. And the junior master console was the one
2 that was found in Mr. Jackson’s living room area of
3 the first floor of his bedroom suite correct?
5 Q. And that allowed people to answer the phone
6 at different locations; is that correct?
9 administration building with the big console right?
14 Q. And to the extent that you have the eight
15 lines here you could do the same with this phone,
18 Q. Now since that time technology has
19 continued to march on since the ‘80s. I take it,
22 Q. And I don’t want to go into all the details,
23 but there are more sophisticated telephone systems
24 that are much simpler than this so you don’t have
25 to have all these buttons in order to make them
28 Q. Now you mentioned that there were eight 4458
1 lines that were on the direct system — well let me
2 withdraw that. There were eight lines that were on
3 this system that could be used by people in Mr.
11 Q. Okay. And by the “extension phone,” we’re
12 talking about the phones that simply had buttons
13 that allowed you to pick up and get an available
17 Q. All right. And those phones could also
18 receive a call if somebody were to direct it to that
19 particular extension; is that right?
21 Q. So if somebody answered the phone they
22 could say. “I want to put this call through to the
23 library because I believe Mr. Jackson’s in his
24 library and it’s for him so I’ll connect it to the
26 A. Right they could — yes they could
27 transfer the call to the library yes.
28 Q. All right. And the phones that were at the 4459
1 ranch were at various locations throughout the
15 And then on into Mr. Jackson’s personal
23 Q. All right. And you could also get the — or
24 the phone system also included the front gate the
25 little guard house at the front gate; is that
27 A. I didn’t examine that. I’m sure it did.
28 I’m sure there was a phone out there but I 4460
2 Q. You mentioned an administration building,
5 Q. So it was outside the manicured lawn area
6 that surrounded Mr. Jackson’s private residence; is
9 Q. And the administration building also is the
10 fire department they have a fire truck up there?
12 Q. So you had phone capability in the
13 administration building for the various
14 administrators the fire department and so on is
17 Q. The administration building there’s an
18 executive assistant or staff person up there who had
19 a desk in the main administration building correct?
21 Q. And that desk is where the main console
24 Q. All right. Now in the — you mentioned
25 that you needed to have some kind of code to call
2 Q. All right. So many systems you have to push
4 A. Some you have to press “9.” And an account
5 code is — is able to be programmed in so that you
6 can eliminate phone abuse. People — unauthorized
7 people making calls you don’t want to make calls on
9 Q. Now you were out there with sheriffs who
12 Q. So you were not chatting with the — with
15 Q. Okay. And you weren’t chatting with his
16 staff about how they set the phone system up or how
21 Q. So you weren’t able to determine whether or
22 not there were separate account numbers or there was
23 just one number that everybody was given to get an
6 Q. BY MR. SANGER: So based on your analysis of
7 this system there could have been one number that
8 would allow anybody on this Merlin phone system,
9 wherever the extensions were throughout the ranch,
10 it would allow somebody to hit the number and get
13 Q. All right. Did you determine — let me
14 withdraw that. So if somebody were able to make a
15 phone call to an outside number for instance,
16 somebody were able to call their let’s say,
17 boyfriend in Los Angeles from this phone if they
18 did it unassisted they would have to have the code,
19 whatever it was to get that outside line correct?
20 A. Not from this phone. But from all the other
22 Q. Okay. Okay. Good point. Thank you. I’m
23 talking about the extension phones and I guess I’m
1 Q. And we’ll come back to that. But as far as
2 the extension phones are concerned the ones that –
3 other than the administration building and this
4 phone if you want to get an outside line you put
13 Q. All right. So if somebody were say on an
14 extension phone at someplace on the ranch and they
15 were able to call as I say for instance their
16 boyfriend in Los Angeles you would expect that they
17 would know how to enter that code to get the outside
20 Q. And if somebody could enter that code and
21 get an outside line to call their boyfriend in Los
22 Angeles they could enter that code get an outside
25 Q. There’s no restriction on calling 9-1-1 from
26 any phone in this phone system other than simply
27 knowing the code to call out correct?
3 Q. By the way you mentioned the eight numbers,
4 and then you said there were 16 other numbers one
5 of which was a direct line to Mr. Jackson’s area in
6 what’s called the bathroom but there’s a sitting
7 area and all that off the main floor –
11 Q. Other than that direct number did you ever
12 figure out where on the ranch those other numbers,
15 Q. So when you say they came into the main –
16 you didn’t say “switch box,” and I’m going to say
17 that and I’m sure it’s wrong but the main — what
19 A. Demarc. Verizon’s telephone demarc.
20 Q. Okay. So the lines come in from off the
21 property from the telephone lines off the property
22 that service the rest of the world and they come in
23 to the property anybody’s property they come in to
24 a telephone box or telephone closet correct?
28 Q. And you know that these other 15 lines came 4465
1 in there you just never traced them out to see
3 A. Correct. We put — I made sure that they
4 had actual dial tone and — on the block. And from
5 my test set you know. I have a code that I can dial
6 and — when I hear dial tone and I can get a
7 recording from the phone company that tells me what
9 So I verified that those — that those
10 telephone numbers Mr. Jackson was being billed for
11 those telephone numbers he had live dial tone.
13 Q. In other words you take your phone — you
14 have a headset that has clips on it?
17 A. It’s a lineman — a lineman’s test set.
18 Q. A lineman’s test set okay. And you simply
19 clip that onto a line correct and then you dial a
20 number which we won’t say because everybody will
23 Q. And it will automatically - it’s kind of
24 cool - automatically tell you what phone number that
27 Q. And you verified that these are in fact,
28 phone numbers coming into the property you just 4466
1 never traced them to see exactly whatever phones
2 there were if any that were hooked up to them?
3 A. Right they weren’t in the phone system.
4 Q. They were not in the Merlin phone system?
6 Q. But you don’t know if there was another
17 outbuildings and check all the phones?
18 A. Yes. We checked the — we looked for phones
19 in the — in all of the buildings. And the only
20 phones that we saw were the Merlin ten-button
25 Q. All right. So based on your inspection of
26 the property all the phones were hooked into the
27 Merlin system with the exception of the 15 which
28 you couldn’t find a location for? 4467
1 A. Those 15 lines. They could have been
4 A. That’s correct. They could have been
5 connected to computers other types of devices.
6 Security. I’m sure some of those lines were
7 security lines connected to the security companies,
8 et cetera et cetera. But we were not able to gain
9 any information as to what they were connected to.
10 Q. Okay. And when you say “security,” do you
11 mean telephone lines as security or some kind of
13 A. Alarm line. Computer. You know for
14 dialing out on the Internet. You know anything
16 Q. But not something you communicate on in the
17 normal telephone fashion talk to somebody on?
18 A. Well they could have been used for that.
19 They could have been. They could have been used for
20 a computer to dial out to the Internet. They could
21 have been used for the alarm lines for the security
22 system that Mr. Jackson had on the ranch.
23 Q. Okay. But you didn’t find a source for
27 Q. All right. Now just as far as the exhibit
28 that we’ve admitted here there appears to be eight 4468
4 A. Those are the telephone lines connected to
5 the Merlin system at Neverland Ranch.
6 Q. And then there’s — below that there appear
7 to be 15 lines. Those are the ones that you just
12 Q. And the handwritten one on the bottom is the
14 A. Right. That’s Mr. Jackson’s private phone.
15 Q. And where did you find that phone that was
17 A. That phone was in his rooming quarters
18 downstairs in the bathroom to the left where the
22 A. Yes. In the same — in the same place.
25 Q. Was this in the bathroom? If you recall.
15 That the foregoing pages 4415 through 4470
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on April 1. 2005 and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
5 RONALD J. ZONEN. Sr. Deputy District Attorney
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
11 For Defendant: COLLINS. MESEREAU. REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU. JR.. ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East. Suite 700 Los Angeles. California 90067
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER. ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street. Suite C
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN. ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs. California 90670
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as “N” on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index. Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7 Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
3 Q. Mr. Green when was the last year that the
4 Merlin II system was made if you know?
5 A. I can speculate. I don’t know the exact
8 A. Yes. It was taken out of production in
9 probably the early ‘90s. ‘92. ‘93 maybe ‘94.
10 Q. And as far as the lines that we’ve talked
11 about those eight lines if an individual called
12 from outside Neverland called one of those eight
13 numbers where would that phone ring or where could
14 it ring maybe to begin with that question?
15 A. Okay. It could ring at the 34-button in Mr.
20 A. And it could be programmed also to ring at
21 any of the other telephones if it was programmed to
22 ring there. So it could ring at every single
23 telephone or only at one or two. Typically it
24 rings at the console or the — or the 34-button
25 phone. But it could ring — and you could do that
27 Q. Okay. And do you know how this particular
28 phone system was set up in terms of incoming calls? 4476
1 A. No because we weren’t allowed to have any
2 incoming calls ring in so we could test that.
3 Q. And — but typically it would be either the
5 A. Yes. On a — on an estate situation you
6 know usually the calls are screened. They come
7 into the console and are screened and then
8 transferred to wherever they want to go.
9 Q. Mr. Sanger used the example of a home phone
10 system as far as similarity regarding listening in
15 MR. SANGER: Objection leading. Your Honor;
19 THE WITNESS: It’s different in that on the
20 Merlin system if you were barging in on — if
21 you’re barging in on a call the caller on the –
22 the person on the other phone would not know that
23 you were — there would be no audio knowledge that
25 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: So you could listen
26 secretly without any input audio input on the
1 Q. And at a home system when someone picks up
2 the phone and is listening in is there typically
3 some audio input that is noticeable to the other two
6 Q. And would the “mute” button also contribute
7 to the secrecy of listening to those calls?
8 A. If you were using the speakerphone yes.
9 Q. Does the “mute” button also work on the
14 Q. As far as other people’s ability to listen
15 in on your conversations does this system — is
16 this system set up where any of the outside lines at
17 Neverland and I mean just the lines that don’t
18 involve either the 34-button phone or the phone at
19 the office could any of those lines listen in?
21 Q. So would that be another dissimilarity
22 between home systems and this system?
27 THE WITNESS: No because you would have no
28 way on the other phones of selecting the line no. 4478
1 It has privacy. You couldn’t — from any of those
2 other phones you couldn’t listen in on another
10 First of all you could listen in on other
11 lines on the phone system from the console in the
14 Q. And that console is pretty much out in the
15 open there in the staff area of the administration
21 THE WITNESS: Well it was — when I
22 inspected it it was in a locked office.
23 Q. BY MR. SANGER: When you say “a locked
24 office,” though the administration building the
25 lock was on the front door of the administration
27 A. No there’s an office inside the
28 administration building as I call it. I don’t know 4479
1 if I’m you know using the right terminology but
2 there was an office inside there that was locked.
6 A. The detective had to have the ranch manager
8 Q. All right. And it was — there was a desk,
9 somebody working at this area correct?
14 Q. Let me ask the question again just so we’re
15 clear. It appeared to be a working area where
18 Q. And the point is whoever had access to that
19 phone would be able to listen in on phone calls as
22 Q. And you would expect — from your testimony,
23 you would expect that that’s one of the places that
24 the phone would ring so that phone calls could be
25 directed throughout the ranch correct?
26 A. Yes. The lines all had to ring at the
28 Q. All right. So not only could ring there. 4480
1 but you believe it did ring there at that console in
4 Q. The phone in Mr. Jackson’s — what we
5 call — it’s a blank screen. I’m kind of pointing
7 The phone that was up on the board what we
8 call a junior console in Mr. Jackson’s living area,
9 the phone did not ring there; is that correct sir?
10 A. I don’t know because we didn’t test any
12 Q. All right. And you can — as you said you
13 can program any of the other phones to — to be able
14 to answer the phone from that location; is that
17 Q. So if there was a phone for instance in
18 that guard shack — you said you didn’t go down and
19 look but assume there was a phone there that
20 appeared to be one of the extension phones you
21 could program that phone to ring so that the person
22 at the guard shack could answer the phone there,
25 Q. All right. You indicated these phones were
28 Q. But there are replacement parts and 4481
1 replacement phones that can be obtained if your
3 A. Yes there’s still refurbished equipment out
4 there. You know it — there’s millions of Merlin
5 systems out there that was produced. It was the
6 most widely sold telephone system in the world and
8 Q. Okay. And the most widely phone system –
9 sold system in the world this Merlin system had
10 that “mute” capability on all of the phones that
11 were sold throughout the world correct if they
16 Q. Yeah the speakerphone had a “mute.”
18 Q. Now almost all office or commercial kinds
19 of telephone systems today in fact have that
25 Q. All right. Thank you. You did mention one
26 other thing. You said something about an alarm
27 system. Did you determine whether or not there was
28 an alarm system in place at Neverland? 4482
1 A. There was an alarm panel in the garage.
2 And you know. I did not go in to the alarm system
3 to see what lines were attached to it no.
5 A. That wasn’t my area of responsibility.
6 Q. I understand. In your work in the telephone
7 industry and as a — the president of a telephone
8 company in Ventura do you have occasion to work
9 with alarm companies when they install –
12 And I think what we need to do. I’ve got to
13 avoid talking over you. And if you could wait just
14 an extra beat before you answer otherwise the court
15 reporter gets her fingers caught in the keys there.
19 When you go out to install a phone system at
20 the same time that an alarm system is being put in
21 place do you work with the alarm company?
23 Q. All right. And one of the things that you
24 often do is make sure that they have a telephone
25 line a secure telephone line so that the alarm
26 system can automatically call out to the alarm
27 company or to a law enforcement agency; is that
2 Q. All right. And so you saw some phone lines
3 that you thought the phone lines might — in fact,
4 one or more of them might be associated with the
5 alarm function at the ranch; is that correct?
7 Q. And based on your experience in installing
8 telephone systems is there anything unusual in a
9 large ranch property for the owner of the property
10 to have an alarm system hooked up to the telephone
12 A. No you wouldn’t have it hooked up to the
13 telephone system. You would have a telephone line
17 Q. Let me withdraw that so I don’t make it any
18 more complicated. I understand what you’re saying.
19 So what I meant was have the alarm system
20 hooked up to a telephone line. You’ve restated it
22 Is there anything unusual in a large ranch
23 operation whereby the owner of the property has an
24 alarm system hooked up to a telephone line that goes
2 Q. Is there anything unusual about the owner
3 and the family having an alarm system around the
4 immediate area where they reside to secure their own
5 personal safety where they are living?
7 Q. So you see that from time to time that
8 there will be a system that’s set up in the living
9 quarters actually where the family resides; is that
19 Q. Mr. Green as far as this barging system
20 works in the Merlin system as compared to a home
21 system is this barging system different only in the
22 fact that it has a “mute” button or is there an
23 additional feature that allows you to secretly
25 MR. SANGER: Objection. That’s compound;
26 leading; and beyond the scope of cross recross.
2 difference. On the Merlin system if I barge in,
3 the party that I barge in to cannot see any light,
4 any visual indication or audio indication that I am
5 listening unless he hears some background noise in
6 the back of me or he hears me breathing.
7 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: So there won’t be a
16 Q. Oh and on that — if I may. Your Honor –
17 there’s no reason — you have absolutely no
18 information to suggest that this phone system was
19 installed for the purpose of listening in on other
22 Q. In fact it looks like a phone system that
23 was installed sometime in the late ‘80s and has just
24 been maintained there on this property ever since,
1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: No further questions.
2 THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you.
11 When you get to the witness stand please
21 THE WITNESS: Larry Feldman. F-e-l-d-m-a-n;
7 Q. And would you share with the ladies and
8 gentlemen of the jury your academic preparation to
9 become a lawyer. Spare us the high school part.
11 A. I went to — ultimately graduated from
12 Cal-State Northridge where I’m proud to say I’m
13 getting the Alumni of the Year Award this year.
14 And thereafter I went to Loyola University
15 in Los Angeles where I graduated in 1969 as the
16 editor-in-chief for The Law Review and No. 1 in my
23 A. Currently. I am at a law firm called Kaye,
24 Scholer. K-a-y-e. S-c-h-o-l-e-r. It is in Century
26 Q. And does it have offices in other locations?
27 A. It does. All over the world. Its main
28 office is in New York but it has offices in 4488
1 Shanghai and Washington D. C.. Chicago. Los Angeles.
3 Q. What is the lawyer size of the firm?
5 Q. Now prior to the time that you — how long
10 A. Prior to that. I had my own law firm which
11 had different names from the time I joined it right
12 out of law school. But ultimately when — as of
13 January 2004 it was Fogel. Feldman. Ostrov,
15 Q. And were you the senior partner of that firm
18 Q. Just give the ladies and gentlemen of the
19 jury some idea of the type of practice of law that
21 A. I have been a trial lawyer all of my life.
22 I started in this firm that I ultimately was the
23 senior partner of right out of law school. I
24 started trying primarily cases for injured federal
25 workers railroad workers and seamen. It was called
26 The Federal Employers Liability Act and The Jones
27 Act. And I did other kinds of like automobile
1 It was — primarily I practiced a lot in
2 federal court some in state court and tried a lot
3 of cases in those years. And then slowly but surely
4 my practice developed. I started doing a much
5 broader array of cases from representing labor
6 unions to representing people involved in wrongful
7 discharge cases. African-Americans who had been
8 discriminated against big companies. Currently,
9 right now representing a class action in Washington
10 D. C. the largest class action of African-Americans
11 who have not been promoted appropriately.
12 I represent — on the other side of the
13 coin. I represent the Oakland Raiders in their many
14 courtroom battles. I represent — I have
15 represented a lot of entertainment people suing
16 studios. I have defended studios. I have
17 represented individual people who have legal
18 malpractice claims against lawyers. And I have
19 defended lawyers who have been accused of
20 malpractice. I have sued rock groups and defended
22 And so my practice really has grown from
23 what it once was into an array of cases from really
24 getting at this stage of my life some wonderful
26 Q. And did you at one time represent the late
28 A. I did represent Johnnie Cochran for ten 4490
1 years in a legal matter from the day or
2 thereabouts when he became involved in O. J. Simpson
3 till the end of that. Till 2000 and — January 2004
5 Q. What professional organizations have you
6 been associated with and participated in?
7 A. I was the president of the Los Angeles
8 County Bar Association. I was the president of the
9 Los Angeles Trial Lawyers Association. I was an
10 officer in the American Board of Trial Advocates,
11 which is an organization that you have to be invited
12 into and have to have a certain skill level in
14 I am what they call a Fellow of the American
15 College of Trial Lawyers which is limited to
16 1 percent of the lawyers in the United States.
17 Another organization that you have to be invited
19 The International Academy of Trial Lawyers,
20 where I am — which is limited to the top 500
22 I mean. I don’t know who’s making these
23 judgments but that’s sort of –
24 Q. It’s nice to be invited even though you
26 A. It’s one club you want to be invited into.
27 But I’m sure there’s somebody else who deserves to
28 be in this club who for some reason doesn’t get in. 4491
1 Q. And are there some committees that you
3 A. Yes. I’ve been appointed to — by the
4 governor to assist in selecting judges for the
5 Southern California area. I have been appointed by
6 the chief justice of the California Supreme Court,
7 both chief justices. Malcolm Lucas who was the
8 chief justice originally who had a blue ribbon
9 committee of lawyers throughout the state with
10 judges who are trying to improve the system of
11 justice for — so there would be better access to
13 Fancy people big corporations don’t have
14 any problems using the courts. But little people
15 have a lot of trouble getting through these courts,
16 and the chief justice had a committee as we moved
17 into the millenium to try to figure out how to
18 better access courts for individuals who couldn’t
20 And then just recently the current chief
21 justice of the Supreme Court asked me to be on a
22 committee to help with the discipline of lawyers.
23 There is a lot of criticisms that lawyers who should
24 be disciplined aren’t disciplined and that the
25 public doesn’t feel like we’re disciplining our own
27 And the State Bar is in charge of this
28 system as it exists right now. And there are these 4492
1 State Bar judges who judge it and there’s — I’ve
2 been asked to be on this committee to look at these
3 issues and try to develop a better system for making
4 sure that lawyers who need to be punished are
5 punished and that we have the right people in place
7 Q. And have you done some teaching in your
9 A. In my spare time when I’m not in Santa
10 Maria testifying. I do. I am — I taught last week
11 at Loyola. I do a lot of teaching to judges to
12 lawyers to law students on different things about
13 the law from ethics to how to try a lawsuit a
14 whole potpourri of different things.
15 I’ve written a lot about — articles and
16 chapters in books about how to try lawsuits or some
17 aspect of some part of a case that I may have tried.
18 Q. Let’s turn to a specific case if we can,
19 and I’d like to focus your attention to the year
21 Are you familiar with a then young boy by
24 Q. And how did you become involved — by the
25 way did you know — when you first met Jordan
26 Chandler do you recall how old he was?
28 Q. And how did you become involved with Jordan 4493
4 THE COURT: Calls for a narrative sustained.
5 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Well describe to us then,
6 the first contact you had with regard to Jordan
10 extent it calls for hearsay. I’m going to object.
13 THE WITNESS: A lawyer in the community
14 referred his — the parents and — are we using his
19 A. Okay. Who used Jordie — who brought Jordie
20 to me a lawyer who was representing the father of
21 Jordie at the time. If I recall. Jordie was being
22 represented at the time for like 20 minutes or so,
23 by Gloria Allred. They wanted to switch lawyers.
24 And he asked me to interview the family and I did.
25 Q. And as a result of the interviews and what
26 other actions you also took did you eventually end
27 up filing a lawsuit against the defendant in this
6 A. You know without seeing the lawsuit the
7 mother and father if I recall correctly — I could
8 be wrong about this without seeing the lawsuit. I
9 thought the mother and father were just the
10 guardians and didn’t have their own claims that we
11 asserted. I don’t think we ever asserted any claims
12 on behalf of the mother and mother. We just
14 And the parents in the Chandler case were
15 divorced and there was a lot of acrimony between
16 mom and dad and in order to keep peace between mom
17 and dad. I came up with the idea that there should
18 be a joint guardianship and I think we took –
20 Q. All right. With regard to that particular
21 case which would have been. I guess. Chandler
2 Q. And in that particular lawsuit do you
3 remember how many causes of action you alleged?
4 A. I think seven roughly seven causes of
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And with regard to the
10 causes of action what was the nature of the causes
11 of action alleged against the defendant Mr. Jackson?
12 A. The sexual molestation of Jordie Chandler.
13 Q. Now did that particular case the case of
14 Chandler versus Jackson eventually result in a
18 settlement was there a particular form that the
25 Q. And with regard to the settlement was it –
26 you’ve heard - I’m sure you’re familiar more than I
27 am - the term “confession of judgment”?
1 Q. Was that particular form of document used in
5 THE COURT: What’s the relevance. Counsel?
6 MR. SNEDDON: The form of the settlement in
7 terms — I mean the form of the settlement — do
8 you want me to go ahead and speak out or do you
10 THE COURT: I asked you the question.
12 understand it there are settlements that are done
13 by way of contract and there are settlements that
14 are done by way of confession of judgment.
16 MR. SNEDDON: The legal effect of the
20 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. I’m — you’re
21 far more capable than I am of delineating the
22 differences but is there a difference between a
23 civil settlement that results from a contract and
24 one that results from a confession of judgment?
26 Q. All right. Would you explain to the jury
27 what the difference is and what the legal effect is?
28 A. Yes. In a confession of judgment it is as 4497
1 though we went to trial and had a lawsuit and the
2 jury came back with a verdict and we had a judgment,
3 or the Judge came back with a finding.
4 And when the Judge says somebody’s at fault,
5 and “Here’s your damages,” you put it into a
6 judgment. And when you have a judgment you can
7 file that judgment in the county and then you can
8 execute on that judgment so that if — and ju
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